Offer a "Preferred pronoun" field on the profile page

[pendrecarc]

Title:
Offer a "Preferred pronoun" field on the profile page

Area:
Profile

Summary:
It would be helpful to get a "preferred pronoun" field on the profile screen in addition to the "gender" field. This would facilitate discussion and linking to other users' posts. It would be important to include a "Rather not say" option, of course.

Description:
It can be difficult to link to other DW users' posts or mention other users if you don't happen to know which pronoun they prefer. Not everyone is comfortable asking You can always choose something gender-neutral or talk around it, of course, but that can be syntactically awkward, and whenever possible I want to respect other users' preferences. If someone has a gender selected, that can provide a clue, but it's not a guarantee, and of course not everyone does.

Having a space in the profile to specify a pronoun seems like a quick fix. The field could be free text if compiling a list of possible pronouns is problematic, but either way it should include the (default) option not to display a pronoun.

Poll #7556 Offer a "Preferred pronoun" field on the profile page

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 117

View Respondents

This suggestion:

View Answers

Should be implemented as-is.
53 (45.3%)

Should be implemented with changes. (please comment)
23 (19.7%)

Shouldn't be implemented.
17 (14.5%)

(I have no opinion)
23 (19.7%)

(Other: please comment)
1 (0.9%)

Edited on 10/8/2011 to add that I got some of my facts wrong in this post re: the existing profile options, due to some confusion over different sites. Also, I explained the possible benefits of this very poorly. It's not just an issue of social ease for those of us linking to other users; it's also, and far more importantly, about being aware of how users of this site want to be approached. Based on comments, if this is implemented (as I still think it should be) it's very important that the field be free text.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[denise]

Just FYI for accuracy, the user's choice for the "gender" field doesn't display publicly anywhere; it's used only for aggregate stats. This should not affect the discussion of the suggestion itself, I just saw that in your suggestion and thought I should clarify!

(frozen comment)

[pendrecarc]

Yep, recent migrant from LJ, and I got the two confused initially, which I should know better than to do. :)

(frozen comment) Try this...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I suggest "he," "she," and "they" as pronoun options. "They" is coming back into fashion as a gender-neutral pronoun; some other services use this for everyone.

(frozen comment) Re: Try this...

[cesy]

It needs to offer free text if someone prefers a different gender-neutral pronoun, though.

(frozen comment)

[rydra_wong]

I think it could easily be problematic if it makes people feel they're being required to specify a pronoun. Especially if only a limited set of options are supplied, which would piss off anyone whose preferred option is excluded.

If someone wants their gender to be known, or has a particular non-obvious preference for what pronoun they prefer, they can communicate that themselves, and most people do; I know a number of people who state their pronoun preferences in their profiles.

(frozen comment)

[ratcreature]

Yes. I don't see of what value a special field would be. For most of the other fields it makes sense that they are filed somewhere they can used as a variable, e.g. the birthday has an input field because there are the reminders, the website appears linked on your pages and such, the location can be used in searches... But why would you need the pronoun available to the system as a variable? The only use I can see is if automated mails from DW would need the proper pronoun address, but I think there phrasing can be made neutral.

(frozen comment)

[erik]

This sounds good, but also sounds like a prime candidate for the law of unintended consequences to apply.

(frozen comment)

[montuos]

I voted "I have no opinion" because there isn't an option for "I have conflicting opinions, but none of them is winning (yet)." ;> I agree with almost all of the pros and cons that I see posted here so far.

(frozen comment)

[susanreads]

Likewise!

(frozen comment)

[pauamma]

If implemented, it should IMO be free-text, because:
- not everyone who would willingly refer to a DW user as eg, "zie" if requested knows what the accusative or genitive of that pronoun are supposed to be (zim? zir? zis? zihre? zin?)
- some users (eg, multilingual users or users with a multilingual circle) may want to specify pronouns for several languages (this is especially true if those languages don't all use the same script)

(frozen comment)

[azurelunatic]

Suggested option-sets with autofill, example sentences for each, and the ability to free-text on any or every?

(frozen comment)

[melannen]

I'm not strictly opposed to this, but even though I go by basic feminine, the idea of being explicitly asked to pick a pronoun makes me go oogy for some unspecified reason. And also I know some genderqueer people who haven't settled on a pronoun who might find it difficult too.

Most people who feel strongly about misgendering find some place in their profile to make this clear, anyway, so I'm not sure this is that useful as a system option.

Also: there is nothing whatsoever wrong with singular they for "gender unknown/unspecified" (a pronoun we'd still need even if a thirdgender pronoun became standard!) It's been used consistently in English since Chaucer! The only reason the prescriptivists hate it is because they were trying to turn English into a Romance language! Which it isn't! ...sorry.

Also it really isn't that hard to avoid using personal pronouns for people if one puts a little thought into one's sentences. Really.

(frozen comment)

[denise]

I know, I know, but I had it drilled into me so many times at an early age that I can't not twitch every time I see it!

(frozen comment)

[holyschist]

Hmmm. I think most people with a different preference than 'he' or 'she' say so in their profiles; I could see this reminding binary people to specify (I tend to assume Everyone On DW Is A Woman, which is just as incorrect as the Everyone On the Internet Is A Man assumption prevalent elsewhere), but I also see all the cons people have brought up, so....I don't know.

(frozen comment)

[aedifica]

I'm in favor of being welcoming to all genders, but this feels like a non-optimal way to do it (especially coming right after the whole "can you make your gender non-public information" thing with Google Plus).

(frozen comment)

[kyrielle]

The idea of having to specify a pronoun, even though in fact I'm cis and the standard one applies, kinda weirds me out.

Conversely, when talking to someone, I don't normally go look at their profile, so the field on others' profiles would go unused.

At least until someone said "how dare you use the wrong pronoun when I listed mine??" and got offended.

This seems like extra work, extra data to fill out, something that would exclude as many people as it would include, and a potential drama llama.

At the same time...the people I believe it would exclude/discomfit are, mostly, in a position of privilege and the ones it would reinclude are, I think, mostly not as privileged.

So..."I have no opinion" is the closest option to "I have too MANY opinions". But I do worry, if it's just on the profile, that it wouldn't be immediately available at the most useful time (ie, when actually addressing the person in a message or comment!). If it is to be done, some thought as to whether it could be indicated anywhere near messages & comments might be nice.

(frozen comment)

[azurelunatic]

On the other hand, if it becomes a thing to have that listed in the profile (which it is already in some networks) then people might start going to check when interacting.

(frozen comment)

[daweaver]

I'm not convinced by this idea, for lots of little niggly reasons.

1) As other commentators have noted, this is information that can be covered in the profile box.

2) It's probably not that a big deal to many people, and something they don't think about. Adding a box to force this choice could be disruptive and scary: "Hang on, I've just signed up to this Big Shiny Thing and they want to know what my preferred personal pronoun is? Am I supposed to have a preferred personal pronoun? Are they going to ask me what my favourite Egyptian hieroglyph is?"

3) Denise's suggestion upthread to allow half-a-dozen pronouns is even more confusing. I know my grammar, and I'd be scared to fill that out.

4) Writers can avoid some of this by writing "Foo said" rather than "((s|z|)he|they) said". Doing so also reduces potential confusion on the part of the readers: which "they" was Bar referring to?

5) All of this presupposes that Dreamwidth, and its descendent projects, will continue to use a dialect of English, and no other language. I acknowledge the present siteowners' decision not to host translations, but it would be wrong to hard-code English grammar into the site where not strictly necessary. For instance, many languages have regular and emphatic pronouns; it's English-language imperialism to ignore the difference.

(frozen comment)

[being_broken]

love! the idea of a box to fill in for this :-)

(frozen comment)

[kaz]

Okay, so I'm posting two weeks late but I really have to say something because I ran across this post hours ago and have been stewing ever since.

First, where I am coming from: I'm nonbinary and use nonbinary pronouns (ze for nominative, eir for genitive, zer for accusative and others derived from that.)

I would LOVE a "preferred pronoun" field. In fact, the one predominantly-nonbinary-people forum I'm on has a mandatory "preferred pronoun" free text field, and it's one of the things I really feel goes to show that the forum is nonbinary-friendly down to the infrastructure. (Since it's a free-text box, people can always - and indeed, some people do - put "asldkfjakls;dfjwhyyyyyy" or "not comfortable with any" or "don't care" or "still deciding" or "still deciding, for now use one of X, Y or Z" or "PIRATE" or whatever.) There are obviously some differences re: how people refer to users on forums as opposed to on DW, and I wouldn't suggest having the field be mandatory, but it shows that asking "hey, what's your pronoun?" as part of the site interface can be, you know, nonbinary-friendly.

And sure, most nonbinary people put theirs into the profile. But, you know. What I really love about a specific field for pronouns is that everyone gets to specify! Having a specific pronoun preference, one that might not be obvious and that people can't be expected to know right off, is presented as default! I'd find this much less alienating than putting it on my profile (where I can't help but feel 'oh yeah, I have to be a nonbinary weirdo who makes a big fuss about this' - sort of the difference between talking with someone and them going "hey btw, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to but what pronoun do you prefer?" and me having to bring it up on my own in conversation), creating more accountability in terms of pronoun use (I'd find it a lot easier to call people out on mispronouning me if there were a dedicated field in the profile which they could have checked), and making the service immediately look more nonbinary-friendly to outsiders and newcomers. Other nonbinary people may have other takes, but this is mine.

And honestly I have been reading the comments and getting angry. Because yeah, a lot of people don't have to think about this - because cis people don't have to think about this. They might find it strange to run across a (probably optional) form that asks them what pronoun they prefer! And this is of course a massive downside that must, must, must be pointed out and. Just. I am just going to say do you see a problem with this because anytime I tried to continue it turned out so furious I'd worry about getting booted from the comm.

All of this of course only goes for free text for the love of god do not make a specified options box do not do not.

ETA: since I voted for "implement with changes", the changes: not trying to make it part of the site infrastructure (since that sounds really messy and doesn't seem to be the point anyway), making it optional, and making it a free text box. I reiterate that under no circumstances whatsoever I'd vote for any sort of constrained "pick this pronoun from a list" thing because that is a disastrous idea.

(frozen comment)

[angelikitten]

I agree with all of this.

(frozen comment)

[sciatrix]

Speaking for myself, as a cis person who spends a lot of time around nonbinary spaces--I automatically look for preferred pronouns or at least a clue to preferred pronouns when I'm addressing a person I don't know, and I vastly prefer being able to do that to just having to assume or guess because the person hasn't really thought about it. Myself, I really really try to avoid misgendering people, and I am much more comfortable when it's easy for me to look up pronouns for a person I'm not familiar with.

Even someone who doesn't want to reveal their gender on the Internet for whatever reason could still use something like "singular they" to obfuscate that while still giving people something to refer to them by, so I guess I'm not really seeing the "I want to hide my gender" argument very well?

(frozen comment)

[kaz]

The way I imagine this being implemented someone who wants to hide their gender could say "singular they please", or could say "I am not comfortable stating", or could just leave the box blank and have the exact same experience as now.

...I am not understanding the "I want to hide my gender" argument.

(frozen comment)

[nami_roland]

I am definitely in favor of a preferred pronoun box. It's really not that hard to specify pronouns, and if it's an optional box, then people who are confused or who don't want to or whatever can just skip it whereas people who want to or to whom it matters can have a specific place to do so. Most of the arguments against seem to be that it's complicated or an extra step or weird or whatever, but they all also seem to be coming from a place of privilege. It's super easy to say that it's not necessary when you're coming from a place where, in fact, it isn't necessary. On the other hand, people for whom it's not necessary are not really the people for whom this would be designed, though specifying pronouns is useful for people who don't want to accidentally misgender you when they're talking.

Basically, I think the, "this is complicated/weird" argument is both privileged and missing the point. Putting in a pronoun field doesn't hurt anyone, especially if it's optional/is a textbox where you can say things like "rather not say", and it would help nonbinary people and show that DW is welcoming to them, which is a good thing and, I imagine, something that the DW community would like to encourage.

(frozen comment)

[iseryn]

In addition, what about if a preferred pronoun is selected, it shows up in the hover box that pops up when you hold your cursor over the person icon?

(frozen comment)

[kaberett]

Ooh, nice.

(frozen comment)

[ciaan]

Optional (as all fields in profile are optional) freetext pronoun field: totally fine. Showing such in hover menu also fine.

Using such in site text such as email notifications, no, I prefer those to be nonspecific. Having constrained list of pronouns to pick from, no.

And I would imagine people would realize that, well, not everyone has the hover menu turned on, not everyone checks your profile, not everyone who replies to you in a some random place has any clue who you are.

(frozen comment)

[amadi]

This is a much needed addition and I'm entirely in favor of it, as suggested, no changes, no additions necessary.

And I'm curious if the people objecting to an addition profile field have filled out their profiles at all. Anything you don't fill in? Simply doesn't show up at all. Not as a heading with a blank space after it, not as "declined to state" or anything like that, it's just not there. And nothing on the profile page has thus far ever been mandatory; I'm fairly sure that one need not even provide a name on a profile page.

It's bizarre to me that no one blinks at "Ravelry username" as an option on the profile page but can find reasons to object to an option for important personal self-identification, especially on the grounds that they don't like how it makes them feel to have to think about the topic. Really?

Time for a privilege check. A big hard one.

(frozen comment)

[theletterfour]

I said should be implemented with changes because basically I agree with Kaz that it needs to be an optional freetext input box, much like the other freetext input boxes on the edit profile page. Also I quite like the idea of putting it in the context menu for the person's icon.

(frozen comment)

[recessional]

The "changes" being that I love both kaz and iseryn's takes on this.

(frozen comment)

[dhara]

Yes, this is my vote as well - it should be implemented, keeping in mind the perspectives/suggestions offered by those two.

(frozen comment)

[windychimes]

At the risk of being a dick...

If you are against a freeform text box, you are an jerk. I know this is a generalization that is probably going to get under a lot of people's skin, but. This is to allow people to choose which pronoun they are most comfortable with. There are a shit ton of pronouns out there, and she and he do not cut it. Yeah, some people are going to put stupid things like "fuck" and "ashdbhgf" in there, but it's better than forcing someone to stick to a binary gender or having to choose other.

If you are a cis person, you can still choose male or female. No one is stopping you from being what you are. And not everyone is comfortable putting such information in there profile; sometimes people just want to say they are x, and leave it at that.

Having a freeform text box would allow people to have a lot more freedom with how they idenitify, and if they choose to identify or not (freeform meaning they could also put nothing).

There is really no downside for people being able to type in their prefered gender/pronound.

(frozen comment)

[matgb]

K, I'm happy to see z free form text box. In fact, we appear to have one. Mine's quite big, has lots of information in it.

So why do we need/want an additional text box. Why do we want volunteeer dev time put up with another entry field? Why not have that time put to other uses?

I can see that there are benefits for those that don't like he/she pronouns, but why isn't the bio a perfectly suitable place for that to go, alongside all the other preferences people have?

[denise]

I've had a few people contact me about the discussion of this suggestion, finding parts of it problematic or hurtful.

To help reduce the (potentially and actually) problematic and hurtful aspects of the discussion, I'll be freezing the earlier discussion threads in place, and new discussion can take place below this comment.

If you want to weigh in on this suggestion:

* Please understand that this is not a theoretical issue, and any single person you're discussing it with may or may not be affected by it or harmed by it, whether or not they say so explicitly.

* Please remember that Dreamwidth's Diversity Statement indicates that DW is attemping to be welcoming to everyone, and rethink your comment based on how it will be perceived.

* Please assume that everyone discussing this is discussing in good faith.

* Please reread the existing comments before making your own, since many people have done an excellent job of explaining why this could be beneficial, to them and to others, and questioning again why this suggestion would be beneficial could be harmful to those reading the discussion who are affected by it.

From here on out, I will be freezing comments that ask why someone would want this feature, or that appear not to have read the existing discussion.