Email posting should be free

[bodhi]

Title:
Email posting should be free

Area:
posting, email, pin, blogging, free, paid

Summary:
My apologies if this hasn't already been requested 6,392 times.. but truly the #1 obstacle for me getting attached to using this site is inability to use email posting as a free feature.

Description:
It may make sense from a let's hold off a feature to get people to buy phase, but considering that every single blogging site known to chimp and mankind provide this as a feature, and in today's fast mobile world, most of us wish to post on the go and perhaps edit "on desku" at leisure.

without this feature as free, i suspect many prospective trial users will just not get as hooked into DW.

OT: frankly I'm quite perplexed and disappointed here. I don't really get what DW is for - is this like GM's Saturn? Building a Better LiveJournal? Because it's not really doing that for me.

Sorry, and thanks for listening.

/regrets

Poll #1068 Email posting should be free

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 36

View Respondents

This suggestion:

View Answers

Should be implemented as-is.
4 (11.1%)

Should be implemented with changes. (please comment)
1 (2.8%)

Shouldn't be implemented.
12 (33.3%)

(I have no opinion)
19 (52.8%)

(Other: please comment)
0 (0.0%)

Comments

[foxfirefey]

I can see pros and cons about making this feature free for all users. I will expound later when my internet is a little more reliable.

However, no matter what happens, I do support and am interested in working on and making sure DW works with services like Posterous. In that way, people could use Posterous to post to DW by email whether or not they were paid.

[bodhi]

hey that posterous is cool

[willow]

Maybe there could be a limit of free email posts per month for free users? That way free users could try it out and if they find they use the system more that way, then they could pay for unlimited use in order not to be halted when their x amount per month limit is reached.

[cesy]

That could work, though I wonder if it's more effort than it's worth to code it.

[kaigou]

I'd think the question is really where the trade-off point is: how many more users can you gain if you're willing to accept the loss-leader of coding those extra amounts? ...because, yes, it's true that "nonpaid users" are a drain on the system in terms of computational and financial issues, but non-paying characters are always going to be the largest group of any online group -- and thus it's likely that they're also contributing the bulk of the content. And that content, in turn, is what prompts other users to want to pay for the nifty aspects of the service as part of getting all that content regularly.

So... I'd say the extra bit of coding is worth the trade-off, if it can be shown that it's a service that would be a substantial boost to users, pay and nonpay alike. That, though, I'm not so certain of. No way to get the stats to gauge it, I mean, which leaves me as undetermined.

[bodhi]

it's surely more art that science. think segway balancing lol.

i know from other sites i've volunteered on it's very hard to convert "free" users if they expect it all to be free. so i respect the sound basis of the math denise did here, really impressive to have the b plan spelled out like that.

question is then how does the "tipping point" get achieved if striving for site growth? maybe this model intends to suit a niche market of sincere bloggers and avoid the spammy junk that congeals around so many blog and forget sites out there.

i was very excited to get a gift code from a friend and even asked for 2 for my own friends as yet to convert any yet :(

today is a more "mobile" world than ever. i think the posterous example cited above shows another level of awareness of that. even clumsy old kodak added as a paid feature some time ago (after a free trial..) of being able to MMS images to your account.

so there's lots of options, free vs paid are the two endpoints. I appreciate my inquiry being taken immediately and am very grateful for the warm reception and conversation about it.

[bodhi]

OMG cesy thank you for your gift!

[cesy]

No problem :) At least you can have email posting for a while, and maybe someone else will help when it runs out, particular now there's "sponsor a random active user".

[bodhi]

yes i saw that checkbox yesterday. well i hope to put it to good use. it was a very noble and appreciated gesture.

[bodhi]

i think something like that'd be a great idea. surely some sort of on-ramp limits whether unit count total/ongoing, or just a timelimited option, etc.

maybe even adding ad-hoc services, like buy 10 whoozit units to do stuff on the site you can't do as a free. i dunno

[cesy]

A points system to buy small items on Dreamwidth is a planned feature, if that's what you mean.

[bodhi]

yeah was kinda muttering that. am really just shooting from the surface, sure you guys have been mashing out all iterations of ideas for some time now

i was just musing you might offer something like buy (rent?) an additional userpic for X, buy 5 email post credits for Y.

[cesy]

Buying/renting additional userpics is not going to happen, because userpics are the single most expensive paid account feature - the cost of extra userpics would have to be the same as the cost of a paid account.

I think (though I may be remembering wrongly here) things like buying 5 email post credits aren't going to be done because it's too fiddly to keep track of which features you're paid for - free/paid/premium is much more straightforward, and allows you to keep track easily of what features you have. However, some of the discussion on dw_biz may be of interest, as they tend to go into these kind of questions in more detail.

[bodhi]

k. it's all good. i hope my inquiry is recognized as interest in helping your site succeed. i do understand the complexity-cost metrics and again applaud the solid writeup quoted here.

i for one would be happy with fewer avatars in exchange for email posting. but again the point is to get people to sign on, not get cushy in free mode

^_^

[denise]

The reasoning for why certain features are paid-user features, and how those are chosen, is laid out here.

[ninetydegrees]

E-mail posting is not mentioned on this page. Could you tell us which listed reasons apply to it (for clarity's sake)?

[denise]

Whups! Hadn't realized I'd accidentally left it off. Email posting is very slightly computationally expensive -- I wouldn't say 'expensive' so much as it is an additional job for the workers to do, which does chew CPU -- and also because it's a draw to upgrade an account.

[ninetydegrees]

Thanks for the super fast answer!

[foxfirefey]

Those are the cons to having email posting for free.

The pros would be: possibly more content being posted, which DW needs. Additionally, DW is often blocked at workplaces, making posting quite difficult otherwise, and this would help with that. It could encourage dual LJ/IJ/OtherJournal citizenship by giving people the ability to post to their other journal, whether paid or free, through email by DW's automatic crossposting mechanism. I think that email posting is a bit more of a power user feature or something used out of necessity--that less people will use it than, say, things like icons, and throwing open the gates won't lead to most people using it (but I could very much be wrong on that). Additionally, we are already adding unique, significant incentives to paid account upgrading like personal journal search, and have plans for more, so I don't think it will gut sales.

I feel weird in thinking that maybe this might be a decent idea--my usual response to requests like this is in most instances a kneejerk no, and I have to think a lot to get beyond that. But I also know that one of the top complaints I hear about DW is the lack of posting or content, and so after thinking a lot about it things that could help, even a little, become more attractive if they're not going to cost the service overly.

[denise]

Yeah, I'm kinda flip-flopping on whether or not this would be a good addition to the free account level -- there are two things (this and comment editing) that I've been vaguely considering as potential free account features, but I really do want to hold off on making any changes to our account levels until paid accounts are more appealing. Search was a big'un, but there are so many LJ paid features that we just don't have that I'd like our paid accounts to be a bit more beefed up before we start turning some things free...

[bodhi]

i say "stay the course" even though i hate that expression lol

i agree this is all still very new and you'll know what's right cause you guys are all smart and observant folk!

[foxfirefey]

Well, we have one month and a week or so before mark can just tear into the code like a bat out of hell and I think paid features will spike dramatically then. So maybe in a few months things like that will be safer to open up to free accounts. (I think the comment editing is a nice touch but less of an issue--before comment editing ever came around I was quite adept at the delete-report rigmarole. Email posting in some instances has very little equivalent yet, although Posterous can definitely fill the gap.)

[bodhi]

thanks that was a great listing and really nice to see it all spelled out. i just wanted to make the case that with every other blogging service providing email-mobi posting for free it just places you at a disadvantage, ad-wise or no. but who am i to question your business model - i am not. was just inquiring :)

i liked the suggestion for some metered options akin to the limited icons. maybe like 3 email posts a month. truthfully i'd give up my additional icons for this super power (as your memo indicated that was a "heavy" feature)

these days with all the blog vectors out there it's pretty insane. so far i think tumblr is really cool and worthy of study. someone even made a shexy blackberry client that looks just like their own posting form.

blogger is the easiest/laziest/most confusing template option i've used yet

wordpress is pretty "pro" in my mind, way too complex for what i hope to accomplish.

LJ really struck me as amazing, i loved having all the group controls and privacy levels etc. it's still the best base for you to be building on. i am still not clear how this site can compete with it given so many users there and the ads are hardly invasive there?

[kyrielle]

Dreamwidth has a number of features that LJ does not, and is expanding and enhancing at a pace that (IMO) LJ does not match. They are both adding enhancements, but IMO Dreamwidth is showing more growth and better enhancements.

This is from the pre-beta wiki, but it mentions some things that are different: http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Dreamwidth_changes_from_LJ

I think the plan to ultimately integrate data from your other sites (if you want it to) is also a huge part of this. (And, since Dreamwidth supports cross-posting now, I can maintain a presence on both sites pretty easily.)

As are cultural differences, to some degree, in how the sites are run. That will only matter to a subset of users, but it does matter to them.

And I'm glad you don't find the ads invasive; I have another account on LJ besides the obvious one, and it's not paid/perm, and I find the ads horribly obtrusive. (Especially the time I hit one that violated the rules and talked at me. Ugh.) So do some others, I think.

[bodhi]

another great resource/read. thanks will study!

is there an API for posting? that should be easy enough too? i have friends i might be able to convince to muck up some sort of mobile client(s) [and hopefully prettier than LJ2Me]

[cesy]

http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Compatible_clients lists the current clients that have been tested - if you can add anything to it, please do.

[bodhi]

oh wow, all my backbiting, lj2me worked for me lol

[kyrielle]

There is! I'm not technical so I can't give details, but LiveJournal has an API for posting and Dreamwidth inherited it. I don't know if they've modified it (in support of the new features), but I know people have used LiveJournal clients to post here just by repointing them. (Given the differences in access/filter lists, I have no idea whether that's still possible or if you'd need a Dreamwidth client.)

Searching the FAQ I find a brief mention of clients you can use - which links to a wiki page that lists clients and also gives (some) details of where the API url's are.

You may (or may not) also be interested in the guide The ethos and ideas behind Dreamwidth Studios: What makes us special? Some of it is, as I noted, a culture thing for some people.

[bodhi]

yeppers.. ok getting a clew here.. thanks so much you guys!!

so the api is a good thing to have and as i said, sorry for the ubernubie slant to this, you've all been so much more than kind.

as per cesy, the lj2me client works here too. huzzah.

[yvi]

and I find the ads horribly obtrusive.

So much yes. I find them really, really not subtle.

[denise]

i am still not clear how this site can compete with it given so many users there and the ads are hardly invasive there?

We're not really trying to compete with LJ! (Or Blogger, or Wordpress, or Facebook, or etc...) It's been my experience over the years that when one site pins their sights on another site as 'the place to beat' that you lose the unique character of that particular site; when owners start designing to "compete with site X", they lose sight of what makes their own site special and worth supporting. We're not in this to become super-ultra-mega internet billionaires, and we don't want to become the next Facebook or Twitter; we want to build a solid service for a reasonably-sized, loyal following that will allow me and mark to support ourselves and our families, pay a few people to hack on Dreamwidth full-time, and make sure that we're going to be around for years to come. We're looking to be the mom-and-pop corner grocery store, not Wal-Mart!

We did our calculations, and worked out that we'd need a paid account rate of 5%: if 5% of our users pay for services, we'll be able to keep the lights on and the doors open. Anything over and above that will let us play with some more nifty stuff. It's been going really well so far, too; we've had a remarkably positive response from our early adopters, and we're innovating really rapidly, which makes me so happy, you have no idea.

Both mark and I worked for LJ (he from 2004-2006, me from 2003-2007), and we both volunteered there for a long time before we actually started as employees, so we both have a lot of experience in building online community and in what users want to see from a service. We started DW because we wanted to get a chance to do all the things we never could at LJ, but we both still love LJ and we don't want it to go away; we both poured years of our lives into it, and we're still immensely loyal. DW is just our chance to take things in a different direction; we're trying an experiment in user-driven business model, where the community is involved as much as possible, and where we aren't so much the Voices from On High as the custodians and caretakers of the shared community resources, you know? We're hoping we can make it work. :)

(And, to answer your concerns mentioned in your other comments, both mark and I absolutely appreciate this sort of suggestion from people, as well as people who are curious about our business plans and business model. It's part of our guiding principles to tell you guys as much as you want to know about what choices we're making, because we want people to feel comfortable and secure in trusting us with their content and their online presence!)

[bodhi]

thanks. i am not questioning your judgement at all, i just made my plea and hopefully you saw my resolution was that LJ2ME worked fine for me as a mobile posting tool. the main times i've used email on LJ have been to post photos which of course free members cannot do here (no local storage) and sometimes posting articles or something. so really nothing i can't do manually onsite and so i feel very happy with the service per se and will unsub from this forum thread.

i do hope you succeed! i am very happy to meet you all and it's very exciting to be a part of something new and inventive.

[azurelunatic]

(no opinion = I'm good with whatever D's call on this is.)

[archangelbeth]

(Same here.)

[ninetydegrees]

OT: as far as I'm concerned, building a better LiveJournal doesn't mean having my favorite features for free. Considering DW is ad-free, I would be very worried if this was the owners' reasoning.

[sky]

I can understand that this could be a totally crucial feature for a subset of people, but I'm not sure "most of us" need the ability to post by email at all times. I've never posted by email once on Dreamwidth or Livejournal, and I doubt I ever will, since I don't use a mobile carrier/plan that enables email via phone -- whereas I'm almost never anywhere that I can't get to a computer. Email posting seems more aimed at the smartphone-toting set rather than the average user, at least IMHO. It makes sense as a paid feature to me.