Better names/access to auto-generated user layers

[zvi]

Title:
Better names/access to auto-generated user layers

Area:
Styles

Summary:
Make it easier to

(1) better distinguish between auto-generated user layers
(2) know when you're generating a new user layer as opposed to saving over an earlier one
(3) switch back to a previous auto-generated user layer without going to the advanced customization area

Description:
I know just enough about the style system that I (a) like to mess with settings in the wizard [including extensive CSS] and (b) can put an entire style together.

But I can't put styles together without leaving the regular customizations area. Using just the wizard, it's impossible to, for instance, save for the future my current very pink version of Transmogrified, but, for the moment, change things with colors/CSS/images done in the wizard (i.e. the user layer) to make a dark style. Because, once I get tired of my dark Transmogrified, I can't, via the wizard, go back to my fluffy pink version.

I know that I can do the saving with the "Your Layers" part of the advanced customization area and the switching with the "Your Styles" part. However, figuring out which user layer interests me is made unnecessarily difficult by the fact that all of the auto-generated user layers are named Auto-generated Customizations.

I propose that
(a) the 'layerinfo "name"' property gets added to the wizard.
(b) "save", "new blank customizations", and "copy current customizations to new style" buttons get added to the wizard
(c) a method for selecting user layer gets added to the /customize/ area.

Benefits of this is that it will let people have better control over their styles without them poking in the advanced customization area or having to learn the difference between a user layer, a theme layer, or a style layer.

It will let users change styles more easily, without worrying that if they make changes they dislike they won't be able to go back exactly to what they liked before.

It may add fewer random autogenerated layers to the system.

The disadvantage is that it makes selecting a style, even with the wizard, more complex than it currently is. I can't really think of other drawbacks.

Poll #1011 Better names/access to auto-generated user layers

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 25

View Respondents

This suggestion:

View Answers

Should be implemented as-is.
16 (64.0%)

Should be implemented with changes.
3 (12.0%)

Shouldn't be implemented.
0 (0.0%)

(I have no opinion)
5 (20.0%)

(Other: please comment)
1 (4.0%)

Comments

[ratcreature]

This would be great. I have the same problem as you have to find previous customizations again. For the longest time I'd never even thought they'd be saved anywhere and I'd note my settings for evey field I changed manually in a text file.

[ninetydegrees]

About potential drawbacks:
If users are allowed to save and not overwrite their customizations every time they make a change, this will multiply the number of layers DW has to store. I don't know if this could be a problem or not.

[susanreads]

Free users can only create one of something - I think it was style layers. Is there a limit on how many paid users can create? Because if creating a new copy overwrote one of those slots, that would discourage people from leaving old drafts lying around.

[ninetydegrees]

Automatically generated users layers are not something free users create. They're created for users by the system when they use the Customize wizard. Unless you go to the advanced area, you don't manage any of these layers. The system does. zvi's suggestion only pertains to the wizard area. As she said, you can go to the advanced area to save your customizations, delete old layers, etc.

To answer your questions about limits, yes and no. There are ways to bypass the system precisely because some layers and some styles are automatically created for you. Rename them, go to the wizard again, switch layout and you'll end up with a new style you can edit to whatever you want. This is true for paid and free users. I have free communities with several styles: I sometimes accidentally use the wizard instead of editing my custom layer and bam! New layer and new style I didn't even want!

[susanreads]

So, I don't understand how these things fit together (I'm not asking for another explanation; I haven't tried to do it myself because I had one look and couldn't tell what was what), but if old versions are saved anyway, shouldn't you get to put a name on them so you can tell which one you want to go back to?

Perhaps there should be a separate limit (varied by type of account) on how many auto- layers are kept.

Sounds like we need a warning in the wizard and a restore-last-saved option.

[ninetydegrees]

if old versions are saved anyway, shouldn't you get to put a name on them so you can tell which one you want to go back to?

No, old versions are not always saved. If you, susanreads, switched from your green and purple version of Transmogrified to a black and yellow version of it, you couldn't easily go back to green and purple. When you switched to black and yellow, the settings for green and purple were overwritten or, if you prefer, lost. If it's the layer for the *same* style, the system only stores the current version.

Perhaps there should be a separate limit (varied by type of account) on how many auto- layers are kept. Sounds like we need a warning in the wizard and a restore-last-saved option.

Both are nice ideas if a limit is necessary and implies some sort of saving system of previous customizations, which currently doesn't exist and which zvi suggests be implemented.

[susanreads]

If I tried out ColorSide Nadeshiko and then went back to Transmogrified, though, would it automatically reload my green and purple version? That's what I'd want it to do, but someone else might want to go back to the default version.

[ninetydegrees]

Yes, it would. To go back to the default version, you need to click on 'Reset to Default', I think.

[susanreads]

Thanks! (That was quick.)

[zvi]

Free users can only have one style and five layers.

A style is made up of layers. You must have at least one layer (a core layer) and then you can add any combination of the following. Language layer + layout layer (example: Negatives) + theme layer (example: Negatives Black + theme specific language layer + User layer (example: auto-generated customizations, i.e. colors, module order, extra CSS.)

Your style doesn't have to have all of these different layers to work. In practice, most people have style=core + layout layer + theme layer + user layer, but you could get by with just core + layout layer or just core + layout + theme layer.

What I'm proposing will affect that last layer, where people play with their colors and their module order, etc.

[ninetydegrees]

Free users can only have one style and five layers.

No, free users can only *create* up to five layers, if they haven't got any already. If they already have one layer, auto-generated or not, then they can only create 4. And so on and so forth. However, they can have far more than five layers. I currently have seven layers in one of my free communities. Four I've created and three auto-generated layers that were created when I switched from one layout to another and customized them. If I rename my user layers, I can generate more user layers.
It's about the same thing for styles. You can only *create* one style but you can have as many as I want. Every time you use the wizard, you get an auto-generated style called wizard-xxx. You can edit it and associate it with any layout or layer. Use the wizard and get a new style. Edit it. Use the wizard again. Get another one. And this is endless.

[zvi]

As I understand it (I AM NOT A DEV), storing something that doesn't get called is not very expensive. (And, actually, storing a specific something that gets called a lot is not that expensive per person, because so many people request it you can keep it in memcache.)

What's expensive is when you have something that's called every so often. Then the system has to run a query or dig something out of its memory, and then serve that information to just one person, instead of keeping it in memcache and serving it to a bunch of people. That's where something gets expensive.

Since styles are one of those things that, if you're using a style, it gets called by you and anyone who visits your journal and if you're not using a style, then in 99% of usecases no one is seeing it, I don't think it's one of those things that's necessarily very expensive to have more of.

I also think my proposal will lead to fewer user layers, not more. As near as I can tell, every time I switch themes, a new user layer is generated. So, every time I dither back and forth between "Do I want Negatives? Do I want Transmogrified? Oooh, let me test that cute theme I saw on mintyapple," I'm getting a new user generated layer.

[ninetydegrees]

I also think my proposal will lead to fewer user layers, not more. As near as I can tell, every time I switch themes, a new user layer is generated. So, every time I dither back and forth between "Do I want Negatives? Do I want Transmogrified? Oooh, let me test that cute theme I saw on [info - community] mintyapple," I'm getting a new user generated layer.

I'm a bit confused. Are you suggesting this is changed? Because it means people can safely switch from and to styles as they have one layer saved per style. I don't see the difference in terms of usage so if saving several layers per style doesn't cost anything then this shouldn't either.

[zvi]

No, I'm not suggesting this is changed. I'm suggesting that people will be more likely to keep around only those user layers that represent some sort of end state, where they like the way their journal looks, instead of now, where you get two or three blank or nearly identical user layers for a style if you start switching back and forth, trying to decide what you want your journal to look like.

[ninetydegrees]

instead of now, where you get two or three blank or nearly identical user layers for a style if you start switching back and forth,

I'll have to check but I don't think several layers are created. I think you go back to previous customizations (the layer which was saved) and it gets overridden. As there are four styles for now, you get, at best, four auto-generated user layers.

[zvi]

I know that I've accidentally created user layers just using the wizard, if I have Transmogrified and then go and work with Negatives and then come back to Transmogrified, I've wound up with a new Transmogrified user layer. Not every time I've made the switch between layers, but I know that it's happened sometimes. (Heck, I've sometimes had to go search out the previous layer and make a style so I can get my previous user layer back.)

[ninetydegrees]

I know that I've accidentally created user layers just using the wizard, if I have Transmogrified and then go and work with Negatives and then come back to Transmogrified, I've wound up with a new Transmogrified user layer.

Weird. Logically, this should only happens if you've renamed your user layer or renamed your wizard-xxx style or detached the user layer from the wizard-xxx style.

[turlough]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand it would definitely make things easier for some people but on the other hand it will undoubtedly make the customization area even more complex than it is right now. It will also mean, as ninetydegrees's already pointed out, that DW has to store more info and to me it also seems like it would erode one of the differences between paid and unpaid accounts.

[ninetydegrees]

it also seems like it would erode one of the differences between paid and unpaid accounts

I debated over mentioning this because I'm not sure it would and I'm not sure it wouldn't. :) Free users already have access to the advanced area and can already save their customizations this way. If they don't use it already then doesn't it mean it's not a reason why they would get a paid account?

[turlough]

I didn't think this through properly before I answered I realise.

Making it possible to save a style in the customization area won't change the fact that free users can only have one style at a time. I mean, it doesn't have to and I don't think that's what zvi is suggesting. I don't really know why I assumed that it would. So forget that part of my objection.

[zvi]

Free users have a limit of five layers. This would just make it easier for them to manipulate those layers, since most free users layers would be user layers.

[turlough]

I didn't know a free user could have five layers. I guess I'd equivalized 1 style to "only 1 layer" in my mind. In any case I hadn't thought the whole thing through properly before I posted that comment so please forget about that part of my objection.