Allow OpenID users to post to communities

[feathertail]

Title:
Allow OpenID users to post to communities

Area:
communities

Summary:
OpenID lets you have a single digital identity that follows you everywhere ... except to DW comms. Maybe we should fix that?

Description:
Right now we let people from other sites leave comments that are authenticated using OpenID. We don't let them post entries, though, which makes sense; if people are using an OpenID, then they have a journal or other site elsewhere. We don't need to give them their own, and we can't afford to, either. That's why we have the invite codes.

As it stands, though, people from other sites still can't participate fully on Dreamwidth. This is because the "no posting" rule applies to comms, too, thus making our comms communites of Dreamwidth members only.

If that's the intent, then this is a feature and not a bug. It makes it awfully hard to get conversations going though, because right now our limited membership means that a lot of comms are failing to reach critical mass. Plus, some members might <em>want</em> their communities to be open to outsiders, such as friends who don't have or don't want Dreamwidth accounts.

Personally, I chose Dreamwidth to host the community for <a href="http://becomeyourfursona.com">my and my mate's site</a>, <user name=becomeyourfursona>, because we both use Dreamwidth and our target audience includes a ton of Dreamwidth and LiveJournal users. It seemed more sensible to create a comm than to make a forum, with separate identities and siloed data. If this suggestion is totally against the intent of what should be allowed, though, we may have to reconsider that.

If this idea is implemented, I suggest just making it automatic for any comm that allows OpenID users to join and to comment. (I don't suggest doing the same for anon users, though.)

Poll #2559 Allow OpenID users to post to communities

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 67

View Respondents

This suggestion:

View Answers

Should be implemented as-is.
21 (31.3%)

Should be implemented with changes. (please comment)
4 (6.0%)

Shouldn't be implemented.
34 (50.7%)

(I have no opinion)
8 (11.9%)

(Other: please comment)
0 (0.0%)

Comments

[zarhooie]

I believe that the example provided by the OP as a reason to develop this feature is erroneous. There are provisions in place for transferring a pre-existing community to Dreamwidth. If a potential member feels so antagonistic about Dreamwidth that they refuse to create an account, even with the community transfer provisions, then I do not feel that they'd be an active member of the community, full-stop.

This aside, I feel that people who are participating in the Dreamwidth community should be *part* of the Dreamwidth community. OpenID users can add other users to their reading lists, upload icons and comment on existing journal entries. I strongly feel that adding more functionality, such as posting entries (to personal journals or to comms), is not beneficial to the site. This is because OpenID users can't pay for their accounts, and thus can't pull their financial weight. If a user wants to make use of the site, they should cough up the $$ for a paid account. It's $3/month, and not unreasonable.

[rydra_wong]

We don't need to give them their own, and we can't afford to, either. That's why we have the invite codes.

AFAIK, at the moment, the invite codes aren't needed to limit site growth: there are far more codes available than people taking them up. There's certainly no difficulty in getting a code for anyone who wants one.

[yvi]

If that's the intent, then this is a feature and not a bug. It makes it awfully hard to get conversations going though, because right now our limited membership means that a lot of comms are failing to reach critical mass.

I really, really don't get the impression that this is because OpenID accounts can't post - most people actually interested in participating in Dreamwidth besides reading and commenting will want a real account anyway. Most of the comms I moderate don't even have OpenID accounts as members.

[rydra_wong]

If a user wants to make use of the site, they should cough up the $$ for a paid account.

Or just go to dw_codesharing and pick up a free invite code. There's not exactly a shortage.

[jaaaarne]

If a user wants to make use of the site, they should cough up the $$ for a paid account.

There are no stats concerning the free to paid accounts rate, but I really don't think that all the site users are paying. Actually, I'm sure of it since at least I am not currently paying (stupid PayPal and Google). So, I don't think that not paying for the account should be the reason to prohibit people from using the site.

I can't disagree with the fact that currently there are more invite codes available than there is a demand for them, but somehow nobody seems to even contemplate the possibility that there might be some other reason for a person to want to use Open ID than being antagonistic or not wanting to pay/get a code. I personally think that centralized ID is a very neat idea.

[jaaaarne]

Sadly, OpenID is still not that easy to use like I personally would wish it to be. Confirming email and maintaining a profile is sometimes more than a user would want. Especially the email confirmation part. Gravatars and confirmation by the OpenID provider should be enough, IMO. But then, I don't know all the particular details...

[yvi]

I'm sorry, but I am not sure how this is related to my comment...

Personally, I hate this whole "everything should take no effort and never more than one or maybe two clicks" thing. If validating an e-mail is a barrier for some people because it takes half a minute, I can't really bring myself to care.

[jaaaarne]

And lots of these end up being inactive. Out of 8 codes I've given there only 3 are relatively active. And this is only 8 codes; I know there are people who've given out much more codes. Do we really want this many inactive accounts? Why does it look like trying to trick people into registering at any costs? For the record: I don't think it's really is, but it really looks like it.

Although, I'm sure that if a person doesn't want to take an easy way with registering, then they probably won't take the more windy road with OpenID. It's just very sad that nobody acknowledges that there might be other reasons for using OpenID than sheer laziness.

[rydra_wong]

And lots of these end up being inactive. Out of 8 codes I've given there only 3 are relatively active.

My impression is that this is true with LJ too (and, I'd imagine, other social networks). Hence the regular demands from users that inactive accounts should be purged so that other people can use those usernames. I don't think it's a DW-specific issue.

Why does it look like trying to trick people into registering at any costs? For the record: I don't think it's really is, but it really looks like it.

In what way does it look like people are being "tricked"? As far as I know, you can do a lot more with an OpenID on DW than you can on most sites; the pressure to get an account rather than use OpenID is already less than elsewhere.

[jaaaarne]

Well, maybe not everything, but I'm convinced that talking to your friends shouldn't be associated with jumping throught the hoops.

I once tried to bring a dear friend here. She said she didn't need another blog since she was not even using her LJ that much, so she didn't want to register. Then I tried to convince her to use OpenID, but that turned out to be not easy and not at all intuitive for her despite my being with her on ICQ and guiding her. That ended up in her abandoning the idea of following me on DW. And maybe, just maybe, something like that is the reason there are not many OpenID users reading communities on DW. Not all users are tech savvy. Using OpenID might not be tricky for me, but I really don't want to judge everybody by myself.

That said, I really think finding invites should be easier. I remember somebody suggesting putting a link to the codesharing community on a front page, I really hope it is done. Without an obvious way it is still jumping through the hoops in the world where there are plenty of other blogging platforms and social networks.

[eruthros]

Yeah, this!

Plus I'm not sure what the interest would be -- for the last round of kink_bingo, we offered invite codes to lj users (and covered everyone just from other comm members who had invite codes) or a posting proxy who would post links to their stories, for people who didn't want a dw account. Of all the people who have posted so far, we've had only two use the posting proxy -- everybody else just got a dw account, even if they left it inactive later. I imagine that this is particularly true because most of the folks who didn't have dw journals were coming from lj or ij, so dreamwidth's account creation was pretty familiar.

[feathertail]

I believe that the example provided by the OP as a reason to develop this feature is erroneous. There are provisions in place for transferring a pre-existing community to Dreamwidth.

This assumes that the sole use case for involving people from off-site in a Dreamwidth community is importing one wholesale to Dreamwidth.

I guess part of the reason I'm saying this is because there are going to be other sites based on Dreamwidth someday, and I'm not going to want to maintain a separate journal on each one in order to participate on comms that just happen to be based on them. (Sort of like I currently have to do on LiveJournal.)

[jaaaarne]

You can do all the same things with OpenID on LJ, so DW is not at all unique here. Basically it's being able to comment if a user doesn't allow anon comments or reading locked posts in case a user gives access to this OpenID. Both are possible only if you validate your email, which is not obvious in case you don't want or plan to maintain a profile.

Generally, using unverified OpenID doesn't make much sense and saying that it's easy enough to find an invite these days reduces its value even more.

By tricking I meant the arguments against letting OpenID users participate in communities. I see now I was not clear enough and it might seem like I meant DW as a whole. Thing is, I don't really see any valid enough reason for not letting people contribute their content except when it is impossible technically.

Besides, as far as communities are concerned, OpenID users cannot join them, which leads to them not only being unable to post, but also being unable to see locked community posts and comment in communities that are set to allow only members' commenting. It generally excludes OpenID users from participating in communities while we're trying to encourage people to use them.

[feathertail]

An OpenID account is a "real account." The whole point of OpenID is that it lets you use your account from another site instead of having to register with Dreamwidth.

What's wrong with wanting to participate on Dreamwidth without wanting to move to Dreamwidth? I personally want to participate in LiveJournal comms without needing to maintain an actual presence on the site. And I like that I can use my Dreamwidth OpenID on other sites instead of having to create a new, separate identity in each place.

[feathertail]

That defeats the purpose of having OpenID accounts, though. Which, as I understand it, is to let users make use of the site without having a paid account.

It's something I appreciate having on other sites, because it means I can use my Dreamwidth account there instead of having to create an account or comment anonymously. I know other LJcode sites don't let people post to comms, but I rather wish that they did. There are a lot of comms on LJ that I'd like to participate in without needing an actual LiveJournal.

[feathertail]

I personally think that centralized ID is a very neat idea.

De-centralized, actually! It means we can use our Dreamwidth identities on other sites. You have the right idea though, and I wonder if maybe bringing this up wasn't a good idea to help educate other Dreamwidth users about OpenID.

Maybe I should have phrased it this way: "Raise your hand if you don't want to be able to use your Dreamwidth identity to post to comms on other LJcode sites."

[zvi]

You can't join LJ comms with an OpenID subscription, but you can join DW comms, so you can see and comment on community-locked posts here.

[zvi]

e-mail confirmation is a spamfighting measure. it's also a really common requirement for joining online communities all over the web, so I'm not sure how your friend join, oh, say LJ without ever having done that before.

[rydra_wong]

That defeats the purpose of having OpenID accounts, though. Which, as I understand it, is to let users make use of the site without having a paid account.

Well, no. People have always been able to use the site without a paid account; that's what free accounts are for.

OpenID allows people to read access-locked posts, leave comments, etc. without having a Dreamwidth account.

[rydra_wong]

Maybe I should have phrased it this way: "Raise your hand if you don't want to be able to use your Dreamwidth identity to post to comms on other LJcode sites."

But how is making a change to Dreamwidth's rules going to change what Livejournal or other sites based on the LJ code do?

[jaaaarne]

Since when? 8) Does it work with all communities?
That's very good functionality, I think. Although I still think that posting access should be granted to OpenID users.

[kyrielle]

On the other hand, I believe there's a work-item out there for some day to allow linking your open id TO your DW account, so that when you open-ID authed in as whoever@whoever.com, the system would go "aha, that's jaaaarne!" At least, I know it was on the list of things-to-do as far back as the end of closed beta...presumably it's still on there somewhere.

[jaaaarne]

Oh, damned if I know what on Earth had stopped her. 8) She complained that it all was too complicated - not just email confirmation, but the whole process. Also, she was a bit scared when she got redirected at LJ login page. Probably, a little note could be put on the OpenID login page explaining that the user will be redirected to the ID providing site? So they probably don't freak out?

As for fighting spam, I realize it's important. That's the reason I say nothing against email verification, only wish it was not needed (and, sadly, in today's internet it is). Thing is, using OpenID should be easier than registering, and it generally is not. People don't like having to register with every site they want to do something on. If a user practically goes through the registration process, with email validation and all, why not allow them posting to communites? They wish to provide DW with content, so why not?

[jaaaarne]

Yes! Ability to tie your OpenID to your DW account. Would be very neat if implemented, but I guess it's not high priority.

I'd like to bump that higher on the list...

[elke_tanzer]

Being able to make an OpenID a synonym of a DW account would be very helpful.

Some folks would like to delete their LJ account, since they've moved to DW, but they can only manage comments which they made on LJ to journals which were later imported to DW by using their LJ-OpenID. Being able to tie a DW account to that OpenID and vice-versa would mean all of those imported comments could be managed by the DW account.